Metagame SV Ubers UU Metagame Discussion (Ditto, Lunala, Iron Treads and Terapagos Dropped)

vesp

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The amount of offensive Pokemon outspeeding and defensive Pokemon able to take hits from it without a scratch make me wonder why people hate this Pokemon so much, I genuinely think if Shaymin-Sky is unbanned it'll sit around B+/A- rank which makes no sense for something not allowed in the tier.
Is mostly because it's unfair and basically a coin toss in terms of results. Oftentimes it is awful but it can realistically defeat its supposed checks via flinching. I agree it's not very good, but is not something people want for a good reason. That's also why king's rock is banned despite it being so lackluster as an object outside skill link shenanigans.
 

Leo Justice

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I wanted to say a little of my thoughts on :Shaymin-Sky: and :Arceus-Flying: now that the survey results are out, and I wanted to say that I do not want them to come back

Arceus-Flying is an easy one. It is extremely hard to answer defensively, and as such it is incredibly dumb. While many people don't know what it does, let me say that this is basically Arceus-Dark and Grass but on steroids. The main difference between them is the fact that Arceus-Flying is immune to spikes and toxic spikes, removing one of the best ways of dealing with Arceus. It would literally 6-0 most stall teams and the only counterplay they'd have is to use Arceus-Electric. The worst thing is that this would start making Arceus a rock paper scissors game, where electric beats flying, flying beats grass (just as an example). as a result, I do not want it to be unbanned

Shaymin-sky is another controversial mon, which I do not want it back. The counterplay is seriously lacking in the defensive end. Like Solgaleo can lose to leech seed sets, Blissey loses to seed flare drops (2 in a row and then it loses), Slowking Galar will take a bunch from EP and also loses to leech seed sets, Magearna is not an answer without investing a moveslot to Ice beam, Giratina can be flinched to death (and it doesn't do enough back). The issue was never if you could handle it offensively, because you can. You cannot handle all of its sets defensively. this is without mentioning how Tera could potentially impact it. Tera would turn its 4x weakness to ice to a resistance with water, or turn its EP strong enough to be able to 2hko solgaleo after spikes. We run a skymin free tournament and it did what skymin did the best, which was not healthy for the metagame as a whole, Overall, as much as people want skymin in the tier (and trust me, I'd love to have a flying type too), it is not going to be healthy for the metagame.
 
Arceus-Flying might be ok but we don’t need more Arceus forms just leave it alone.

Shaymin-Sky is probably not overpowered either but it’s just a cheap coin flip mon that isn’t very fun and we don’t need either.

And I’m usually very inclusive and anti-ban but the tier is great atm just leave it alone and see what we get tomorrow in shifts.
 

Leo Justice

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What are we thinking of the new drops? I personally think that both have potential to be overpowered but are checked by very specific stuff + their typing being weak to rocks.

Bundle's access to flip turn + extra speed basically turns it into a sidegrade (or even better) Palkia-O while Chien pao can be like an ice type zacian.
 

KineSquared

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What are we thinking of the new drops? I personally think that both have potential to be overpowered but are checked by very specific stuff + their typing being weak to rocks.

Bundle's access to flip turn + extra speed basically turns it into a sidegrade (or even better) Palkia-O while Chien pao can be like an ice type zacian.
I don't know, I've always been a little down on bundle. It will be good for sure, but it has to choose between good damage w/ specs or encore to stop calm minders. Dialga and maybe mag? can sit on it all day. I'm more convinced M-weavile could be problematic, but luckily zacian dunks on it pretty hard
 
I don't know, I've always been a little down on bundle. It will be good for sure, but it has to choose between good damage w/ specs or encore to stop calm minders. Dialga and maybe mag? can sit on it all day. I'm more convinced M-weavile could be problematic, but luckily zacian dunks on it pretty hard
Dondozo can also handle any version of Pao that's not banded. Magearna can probably eat hit from even Banded Pao
 

Leo Justice

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Survey time

Enjoyment: 4

I like this tier. But i think that there's certainly too much to account for in the teambuilding. its hard to play when there's pokemon who's luck can screw you over very easily (Flinches, misses, defense drops). Lots of rng around

Balance: 3

There's a subset of pokemon i don't think are balanced which give offense too much tools. Balance is really hard to play and often enough required magearna.

:Arceus-Dark: 2

Imperial's favorite pokemon. It's hard to check it defensively but it's definitely possible. Even stall can use Alcremie to completely counter this. Garganacl also soft checks it with Blissey, and toxic spikes and hazards keep it at bay. It's hard but manageable. Against balance, and offense, it's really easily as long as you have hazards and a physical attacker.


:Chien-Pao: 4

This guy is impossible to check defensively. You need to use Magearna in 99% of teams otherwise you can't swap into it. Offensive teams struggle into HDB Chien Pao as hazards like sticky webs or stealth rock don't deal with it, and defensive teams cannot swap into crunch chien Pao. i think this guy is the most banworthy of them all.


:Mewtwo: 3

Another guy who's almost impossible to check defensively. The only thing holding it back is it's lackluster stab, it's reliance in focus blast, and it's 4MMS. I think that it's possible that this goes after Pao

:Iron-Bundle: 2

I can see this guy becoming a problem after chien Pao is gone. Right now, it's really overshadowed. I think it's going to rise up later.

:Zacian: 1

One of the two pokemon holding the metagame together. I really like her, and she doesn't feel overpowered. Tera can be a bit annoying with her since she can break through her checks but it's nothing too much

:Gothitelle: 4

I am a firm shadow tag believer. It just needs innovation. Dugtrio is more popular rn because trapping magearna makes chien Pao impossible to deal with, but Goth can achieve a similar thing. im not coping i swear


:Terapagos: 1
Always a nice stat to have, but there seems to not be an issue

:Shaymin-Sky: 1

Guys. I can't believe you want to free this. It's impossible to check defensively. Like it's a balance killer. You'd need to run Solgaleo or Dialga, who can still lose to Skymin btw. There is no real answer, and even blissey can get 3HKO'd.


:Arceus-Flying: 1

Less broken Arceus forms please and thank you. While a lot of people weren't around for it, it's still completely busted. It turns the game into a rock paper scissors with your Arceus forms which is not fun.

:Arceus-Steel: 1

Similar reason to above. It's immune to all toxic, which is kind of crazy. The only salvation is that salt cure is 25% on it. Outside of that, it's impossible to check defensively with the set. It also has a lot of flexibility which flying lacks.



Overall - Ban chien pao, don't unban skymin. I feel like it's crazy that you don't want to play the game, as skymin effectively does that.
 
What are we thinking of the new drops? I personally think that both have potential to be overpowered but are checked by very specific stuff + their typing being weak to rocks.

Bundle's access to flip turn + extra speed basically turns it into a sidegrade (or even better) Palkia-O while Chien pao can be like an ice type zacian.
Pao could potentially be ok, but Bundle might be banworthy for the obvious reason of having literally the best dual stab in the entire game and the speed and special attack to back that all up.

Genuinely think Specs bundle is harder to answer than Chien Pao right now. Even Dialga has to be scared of getting frozen from it since Bundle does have ice beam where specs freeze dry or pump isn't enough. Genuinely more worried about Bundle than Pao being overbearing since bundle has less answers, and those answers are not pokemon that don't fold to freeze hax from specs ice beam.


Both could be healthy but I think eyes should be kept on them
 
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Survey time

Enjoyment: 4

We're good here, tilting on ladder aside i'm having fun, (i promise)

Balance: 4

Mostly good in this department, except for the ferret and god himself and MAYBE the cat imo.

:Arceus-Dark: 4

This fucker is so ahrd to deal with. Taunt + Calm mind has very few answers, none of whicha re particularly flexible, tera fairy wins games on the spot, and what beats this set lose to will-o-wisp. defintiely too strong, but all the arceus are dumb anyway, so this isn't as oppressive are fireceus.


:Chien-Pao: 5

switchins where? :magearna: awesome. thanks. truly peak.
252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 214-254 (42.4 - 50.3%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
this mon is broken, please ban.


:Mewtwo: 5

ok so lets play a game chat. you name the reliable mewtwo switchins. oh, whats that? no switchins? thats crazy. This things has virtually no defensive answers and if it wasn't for 4mss and focus miss, this thing would be gone faster than zekrom.

:Iron-Bundle: 1

hes a goober. specs is a super nice set, but this mon is almsot entirely non-problematic. maybe it can become an issue after pao goes, but i really do not see it happening.

:Zacian: 1

anyone putting more than 3 on this is crazy. so many checks, scarfers have offensive counterplay. sure, teras a bitch, but tis entirely manageable and a great metagame presence, keeping pao in check.

:Gothitelle: 3
trapping broken, but not too good at the mo'. def lurking ready to break the metagame in two.


:Terapagos: 3

its tera.


:Shaymin-Sky: 5

FUCK IT WE BALL. i want a flying type please


:Arceus-Flying: 5

if y'all won't ban arc-dark then its all or nothing on arceusn formes, i think flying is probably broken, but more reasonable than..

:Arceus-Steel: 5
this guy. insane. crazy, toxic spikes can't break either of these two, but this one resist rocks. neither of these should rejoin the tier, but all-or-nothing on arceus imo.



Overall - Ban chien pao. ban mewtwo.
 
Pao could potentially be ok, but Bundle might be banworthy for the obvious reason of having literally the best dual stab in the entire game and the speed and special attack to back that all up.

Genuinely think Specs bundle is harder to answer than Chien Pao right now. Even Dialga has to be scared of getting frozen from it since Bundle does have ice beam where specs freeze dry or pump isn't enough. Genuinely more worried about Bundle than Pao being overbearing since bundle has less answers, and those answers are not pokemon that don't fold to freeze hax from specs ice beam.


Both could be healthy but I think eyes should be kept on them
specs bundle is choice locked, and lacks the sheer power pao has behind its stabs
 
I don’t get why we’re trying to free more Arceus forms. Adding more forms doesn’t add much to the meta and actually detracts from its charm imo - we should be doing the opposite and get rid of the really good ones if anything. I don’t think adding the two Arceus forms in question will flip the meta upside down but I just don’t really see any reason to do so. And Skymin is just uncompetitive and not fun - I don’t see why we’d want to free that.

Re: Chien Pao - I haven’t had much issues with it yet, it’s strong for sure but it’s usually worth trading something vs it, and also Mag is really good generally so it’s not like it’s hard to fit it on your team if needed. Some stuff is just going to be very strong, but I don’t see it as all that much different than Zacian when it was going nuts to warrant the outcry it’s received. It’s possible it becomes too much later but as of now I just don’t see it.

Banning tera is a meme - no reason to even consider that when neither OU nor Ubers have restricted it and this is supposed to be an in-between meta.
 
I don’t get why we’re trying to free more Arceus forms. Adding more forms doesn’t add much to the meta and actually detracts from its charm imo - we should be doing the opposite and get rid of the really good ones if anything. I don’t think adding the two Arceus forms in question will flip the meta upside down but I just don’t really see any reason to do so. And Skymin is just uncompetitive and not fun - I don’t see why we’d want to free that.

Re: Chien Pao - I haven’t had much issues with it yet, it’s strong for sure but it’s usually worth trading something vs it, and also Mag is really good generally so it’s not like it’s hard to fit it on your team if needed. Some stuff is just going to be very strong, but I don’t see it as all that much different than Zacian when it was going nuts to warrant the outcry it’s received. It’s possible it becomes too much later but as of now I just don’t see it.

Banning tera is a meme - no reason to even consider that when neither OU nor Ubers have restricted it and this is supposed to be an in-between meta.
should mention that tera was jsut to gauge the opinions on it
(same w/ arc forms)

chien-pao's ONLY hard switchin is magearna, who can only do it once or twice per game, and is like dead to spieks or even rocks in some cases, or even icicle crash flicnh. its like ash-greninja running away with the game after a dark pulse flicnh, except its more likely, stroonger and has a better stab combo with fewer checks.

as for skymin, a flying type would be really nice, considering the best flying type that actually does something is *tornadus-t*
yeah its uncompetitive and arguably too strong, but you never know til you try
also hi lurking Taka
 
I don’t get why we’re trying to free more Arceus forms. Adding more forms doesn’t add much to the meta and actually detracts from its charm imo - we should be doing the opposite and get rid of the really good ones if anything. I don’t think adding the two Arceus forms in question will flip the meta upside down but I just don’t really see any reason to do so. And Skymin is just uncompetitive and not fun - I don’t see why we’d want to free that.

Re: Chien Pao - I haven’t had much issues with it yet, it’s strong for sure but it’s usually worth trading something vs it, and also Mag is really good generally so it’s not like it’s hard to fit it on your team if needed. Some stuff is just going to be very strong, but I don’t see it as all that much different than Zacian when it was going nuts to warrant the outcry it’s received. It’s possible it becomes too much later but as of now I just don’t see it.

Banning tera is a meme - no reason to even consider that when neither OU nor Ubers have restricted it and this is supposed to be an in-between meta.
I mean Ubers UU is technically an UM and not an official tera so banning tera wouldn't affect any other tier, but yeah I agree
 
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LovelyLuna

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Survey <3

Enjoyment: 4

Very fun tier, don't feel restricted in the teambuilder and there are minimal situations where a Pokemon just fucks up your team. Find every archetype viable too. But I have to say, it is full of inaccurate moves and paralysis, on top of the crits you'll find once in a while.

Balance: 4

I like it, the tier can sometimes feel a bit reliant on offensively checking certain Pokemon but can also sometimes feel like everything is perfectly fine. Few controversial Pokemon but nothing certainly unreasonable imo.

:Arceus-Dark: 3

Borderline broken but leaning towards it staying. Probably the biggest noob crusher from my experience, very little people know what to do when you Taunt and CM up to +3 before they realise anything happened. Vulnerable to hazards and other formes of chip though, and there are enough Pokemon in the tier that can revenge it, Chien-Pao is Ann appreciates addition.

:Chien-Pao: 3

Slightly leaning towards ban, CB just does so much damage to everything but incredibly vulnerable to hazards. Boots Pao doesn't care about them but easier to switch around imo. Even with that, Chien-Pao usually picks up a kill when it comes in, the biggest issue is, if it comes in. Chien-Pao can barely switch in on anything and will usually require you to sac a Pokemon to bring it in, once it kills something and is forced out, you made a 1 for 1 trade. There are limited Pokemon that can force it out though, with an insane speed tier and STAB combination. I think a suspect was the best possible decision.

:Mewtwo: 2

4MSS really hurts it. Feels a bit weak to other threats in the tier, limiting how much it can do, can see this becoming a bigger problem again if Chien-Pao does get banned.

:Iron-Bundle: 1

Palkia-O from Wish. Try and get this Pokemon to come in on anything.

:Zacian: 2

Simply fuck Tera Blast, otherwise good Pokemon that prevents a lot of others from being completely stupid.

:Gothitelle: 1

Shadow Tag as an ability is pretty broken but if it's on Gothitelle it's fine, what does this even trap that could make you consider it problematic.


:Terapagos: 3

Makes a lot of offensive Pokemon more difficult to answer. Not unreasonably broken on anything right now though.


:Shaymin-Sky: 2

Where are our Flying-types, but still very unfun Pokemon with vague defensive counterplay. Kind of forces you to run some of the fastest Pokemon in the tier, and oh? What's that? They can't switch in for shit?


:Arceus-Flying: :Arceus-Steel: 1

Hear me out, what if, Arceus was great into most hazards and had one of the best defensive typings that barely anything in the tier can hit. Fun right?


Overall - I'd really like to give this metagame more time to develop, unsure if anything deserves the ban hammer yet but really don't unban any Pokemon, they were all stupid for a good reason.
 

Leo Justice

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If you guys thought Necrozma-Dawn Wings was broken back when it was around, wait until you get a load of Lunala.
Actually, Lunala hasn't felt as strong as I originally thought.
Mainly because a Terapagos with Dark Pulse is unironically a complete counter to it. Its not weak to Moonblast (so it has to rely on focus blast), it has tera shell for the first hit, CM, can hit it super effective weather it teras or not, and is immune to moongeist beam so it can usually come in for free.

Terapagos has felt a lot stronger than Lunala personally, and even terapagos isn't strong enough for me to say its vlatantly overpowered; I see that there is probably a need for people to shift the way they play against it.
 
you know what DOES feel broken? shed tail.
i am festering a great hatred for this move, cause paired with tera shell / shadow shield, it amkes both of these excruiatingly annoying to play against, to a point where its basically pseudo trapping, because you can't take a kill in fear of cyclizar shed tailing for free.
 

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